2016 Rubicon Issue After Lifters / Rockers Replacement

[truckeeJK]

Hi All,
First post. I have a 2016 3.6L manual shift 6 speed Rubicon, that I got a few months ago. It is a long story, but I picked it up for almost-nothing, but it was dead, with an unknown driving history.

The body is in great shape, no rust, etc. Has 127k miles. Had the following taken care of over the past 3 months:

1. New timing chain kit, water pump- previous one apparently was thrown.
2. Brakes.
3. Driver's side cat converter-was coding
4. Evap leak - was coding
5. oil pressure gauge switch-coding

After this work, the jeep drove very well, EXCEPT it would go into limp mode on occasion, always after having it over 3,200rpms, then the check engine light would come on (sometimes, sometimes it would just limp without the light coming on). I could pull over, turn the engine off for a few seconds, turn it back on and it would drive fine. IF the light had gone on, it would go off after a bit of driving.

It was also doing the jeep lifter tick, tick, tick. I had the lifters/rockers surgery done. After that surgery, there was a new knocking sound. I drive the Jeep about 3 miles, and then the knocking got worse, so I drove it back to the shop that did the work, and this is what it sounded and looked like (see video).

The shop has no idea what the new noise is, and even though it was not making this noise before they did the lifters and rockers, they are denying that they did anything wrong. The mechanic who did the lifters did need to pull off the front timing cover because he apparently had trouble getting one of the tensioners removed, it then broke, and then he had to replace the tensioner with a new one. He blamed it on the (different) mechanic who did the initial timing chain kit replacement.

Any thoughts on what the new noise might be and where to go from here?

Both mechanics who were inside the engine said that it looked surprisingly clean and did not see any obvious signs of major damage...

Thanks!!
J

 

[Chris]

Hi All,
First post. I have a 2016 3.6L manual shift 6 speed Rubicon, that I got a few months ago. It is a long story, but I picked it up for almost-nothing, but it was dead, with an unknown driving history.

The body is in great shape, no rust, etc. Has 127k miles. Had the following taken care of over the past 3 months:

1. New timing chain kit, water pump- previous one apparently was thrown.
2. Brakes.
3. Driver's side cat converter-was coding
4. Evap leak - was coding
5. oil pressure gauge switch-coding

After this work, the jeep drove very well, EXCEPT it would go into limp mode on occasion, always after having it over 3,200rpms, then the check engine light would come on (sometimes, sometimes it would just limp without the light coming on). I could pull over, turn the engine off for a few seconds, turn it back on and it would drive fine. IF the light had gone on, it would go off after a bit of driving.

It was also doing the jeep lifter tick, tick, tick. I had the lifters/rockers surgery done. After that surgery, there was a new knocking sound. I drive the Jeep about 3 miles, and then the knocking got worse, so I drove it back to the shop that did the work, and this is what it sounded and looked like (see video).

The shop has no idea what the new noise is, and even though it was not making this noise before they did the lifters and rockers, they are denying that they did anything wrong. The mechanic who did the lifters did need to pull off the front timing cover because he apparently had trouble getting one of the tensioners removed, it then broke, and then he had to replace the tensioner with a new one. He blamed it on the (different) mechanic who did the initial timing chain kit replacement.

Any thoughts on what the new noise might be and where to go from here?

Both mechanics who were inside the engine said that it looked surprisingly clean and did not see any obvious signs of major damage...

Thanks!!
J

The knocking sound you're describing could be caused by a few different issues:

New Components Settling: Sometimes, when new lifters or rockers are installed, they can take some time to settle. If the new parts are not fully lubricated or if there’s an issue with the engine oil, it can lead to noises that go away after a brief period of running.

Improper Installation: Given that the shop had to remove the timing cover and work on the tensioner, there could be a chance that something wasn’t reassembled correctly. This might lead to slack in the timing chain or improper alignment.

Foreign Object or Debris: It’s worth checking if any debris may have gotten lodged in the lifter area during the procedure, especially if they had to perform extensive work.

Oil Flow Issues: Given that you've had a history of oil pressure code issues, make sure that the oil passages are clear and that the correct type of oil is being used. Sometimes, a change in oil weight or type can affect hydraulic components.

Inspection for Other Issues: If both mechanics claim everything visually looks good, it may be worth considering a third opinion. Sometimes, a fresh set of eyes can help identify a problem that may be easily overlooked.

With the knocking worsening after the lifters were replaced, I understand the concern! Since the shop is denying any wrongdoing, it might be beneficial to document your concerns and the timeline of events. If the noise persists and shows signs of becoming worse, you could also consider taking a video and showing it to an independent shop for a second opinion.

Hang in there, and keep us posted on what you find out. Hopefully, you'll get this resolved soon and be back to enjoying your Jeep!

 

[Anybodyhome]

If that was an 8-cylinder engine, I'd think it was way out of timing and maybe losing a cylinder.

Is it throwing any codes now?
Have you done the stethoscope with the socket extension on each cylinder?
Blaming another mechanic for doing something is fairly common, but I care more that the guy fixed whatever he's blaming the other guy for?

I'll go out on a limb and suggest it goes back to the timing chain and the front end of the engine. But I'd want to know what codes its showing now.

 

[truckeeJK]

If that was an 8-cylinder engine, I'd think it was way out of timing and maybe losing a cylinder.

Is it throwing any codes now?
Have you done the stethoscope with the socket extension on each cylinder?
Blaming another mechanic for doing something is fairly common, but I care more that the guy fixed whatever he's blaming the other guy for?

I'll go out on a limb and suggest it goes back to the timing chain and the front end of the engine. But I'd want to know what codes its showing now.

Thank you for replying. It was throwing the cam shaft position sensor code.

 

[truckeeJK]

The knocking sound you're describing could be caused by a few different issues:

New Components Settling: Sometimes, when new lifters or rockers are installed, they can take some time to settle. If the new parts are not fully lubricated or if there’s an issue with the engine oil, it can lead to noises that go away after a brief period of running.

Improper Installation: Given that the shop had to remove the timing cover and work on the tensioner, there could be a chance that something wasn’t reassembled correctly. This might lead to slack in the timing chain or improper alignment.

Foreign Object or Debris: It’s worth checking if any debris may have gotten lodged in the lifter area during the procedure, especially if they had to perform extensive work.

Oil Flow Issues: Given that you've had a history of oil pressure code issues, make sure that the oil passages are clear and that the correct type of oil is being used. Sometimes, a change in oil weight or type can affect hydraulic components.

Inspection for Other Issues: If both mechanics claim everything visually looks good, it may be worth considering a third opinion. Sometimes, a fresh set of eyes can help identify a problem that may be easily overlooked.

With the knocking worsening after the lifters were replaced, I understand the concern! Since the shop is denying any wrongdoing, it might be beneficial to document your concerns and the timeline of events. If the noise persists and shows signs of becoming worse, you could also consider taking a video and showing it to an independent shop for a second opinion.

Hang in there, and keep us posted on what you find out. Hopefully, you'll get this resolved soon and be back to enjoying your Jeep!

Thank you for such a detailed response. Really appreciate it. They apparently just sent it to a dealer to have another set of eyes on it.
When it warms up, at times, the oil pressure is apparently dropping to 10-15PSI, do you know if that is normal? I am wondering if the second stage part of the 2 stage oil pump is malfunctioning? I don't think that would explain the knocking...

 

[Chris]

Thank you for such a detailed response. Really appreciate it. They apparently just sent it to a dealer to have another set of eyes on it.
When it warms up, at times, the oil pressure is apparently dropping to 10-15PSI, do you know if that is normal? I am wondering if the second stage part of the 2 stage oil pump is malfunctioning? I don't think that would explain the knocking...

You're welcome! I'm glad I could help. Regarding your oil pressure, a reading of 10-15 PSI when the engine is warm is generally on the lower end for the 3.6L engine, especially at idle. Ideally, you want to see around 20-25 PSI at idle when it's warm and even higher during acceleration.

A malfunction in the second stage of the oil pump could indeed lead to low oil pressure, which might affect overall engine performance and cause issues with components that rely on proper oil flow. While low oil pressure might not directly cause knocking, inadequate lubrication can lead to increased wear and noise from various engine components, particularly after major work like lifter and rocker replacements.

Make sure the dealer checks the oil pump's performance, as well as the oil pressure sending unit, to rule out any sensor-related issues. If those components are functioning well and you're still seeing low oil pressure, a deeper inspection of the engine may be necessary to check for any potential issues with wear or internal damage that might be contributing to the knocking sound.

It's great that you're getting a second opinion; that could help narrow down the root cause. Keep us updated on what the dealer finds, and good luck!

 

[Anybodyhome]

The mechanic who did the lifters did need to pull off the front timing cover because he apparently had trouble getting one of the tensioners removed, it then broke, and then he had to replace the tensioner with a new one. He blamed it on the (different) mechanic who did the initial timing chain kit replacement.

And now the oil pump is not functioning properly as well. All of these are interconnected back to the front end of the engine. Timing chain, can shaft sensor codes, oil pump, broken tensioner....
I'd almost bet money everything leads back to the timing chain.

 

[truckeeJK]

The knocking sound you're describing could be caused by a few different issues:

New Components Settling: Sometimes, when new lifters or rockers are installed, they can take some time to settle. If the new parts are not fully lubricated or if there’s an issue with the engine oil, it can lead to noises that go away after a brief period of running.

Improper Installation: Given that the shop had to remove the timing cover and work on the tensioner, there could be a chance that something wasn’t reassembled correctly. This might lead to slack in the timing chain or improper alignment.

Foreign Object or Debris: It’s worth checking if any debris may have gotten lodged in the lifter area during the procedure, especially if they had to perform extensive work.

Oil Flow Issues: Given that you've had a history of oil pressure code issues, make sure that the oil passages are clear and that the correct type of oil is being used. Sometimes, a change in oil weight or type can affect hydraulic components.

Inspection for Other Issues: If both mechanics claim everything visually looks good, it may be worth considering a third opinion. Sometimes, a fresh set of eyes can help identify a problem that may be easily overlooked.

With the knocking worsening after the lifters were replaced, I understand the concern! Since the shop is denying any wrongdoing, it might be beneficial to document your concerns and the timeline of events. If the noise persists and shows signs of becoming worse, you could also consider taking a video and showing it to an independent shop for a second opinion.

Hang in there, and keep us posted on what you find out. Hopefully, you'll get this resolved soon and be back to enjoying your Jeep!

So, without telling me (which I am actually Okay with) they sent the jeep to a dealer on the other side of Vermont-not sure why they did not just send it to the local dealer who is 4 miles from their shop....

The diagnosis from that tech at the dealership is: "engine is making a knocking noise. I found that cylinder 2 and 4 are making the noise in the lower end, indicating to me that those rod bearings are failing. Engine will need replacement due to the metal going throughout the entire engine. Also only has 11lbs of oil pressure." For which they charged $179.

There was no issue or codes when I brought the jeep in to the original shop to have the lifters, rockers and tappits(?) replaced - other than the ticking noise. The mechanic at the time (and another one who did the timing chain 1500 miles prior) remarked on how clean and in good shape the engine was, there was no "scoring" or other issues.

I am trying to be fair about this. The shop is claiming that they did not do anything wrong, however, I am suspicious because the jeep was not having any other issues when I dropped it off, and immediately upon start up after the lifters work, it began the new tapping noise and then got suddenly worse and coded for the cam position code after driving it 4-5 miles.

It now apparently needs a new engine, and I am trying to figure out if the shop should be on the hook for this.

Here is a video I found of the jeep just after the rocker/lifter repair, before the road test, with the new noise:

Thank you - and please, any thoughts are welcome.
Jason

 

[WSS]

OUCH! Bad situation. You can decide that the shop is "on the hook", but if the shop decides it is not, you will have a legal battle.

Consider doing oil samples of your vehicles (engine and trans at minimum ). Tracking and having solid health reports could go a long way in convincing a shop to foot the bill. I know this is the proverbial "hindsight", but if this can help others avoid issues like this, it has some value

That aside, it is possible the Jeep was parked for this reason and it is just now rearing it's head again. Considering you got it for almost nothing, an engine is not too bad for a rust free 2016. Can you get an engine installed for $5k?

EDIT: I just read or remembered that you did lifter and rocker surgery, If you had a flat lifter or a cam lobe flattening or grooving, a lot of metal flows through the system. Could be a potential cause of lower end failure. A oil sample right now might be beneficial, as the results will show what type of contaminants are present, lead, copper, iron, silica, etc..

 

[truckeeJK]

OUCH! Bad situation. You can decide that the shop is "on the hook", but if the shop decides it is not, you will have a legal battle.

Consider doing oil samples of your vehicles (engine and trans at minimum ). Tracking and having solid health reports could go a long way in convincing a shop to foot the bill. I know this is the proverbial "hindsight", but if this can help others avoid issues like this, it has some value

That aside, it is possible the Jeep was parked for this reason and it is just now rearing it's head again. Considering you got it for almost nothing, an engine is not too bad for a rust free 2016. Can you get an engine installed for $5k?

EDIT: I just read or remembered that you did lifter and rocker surgery, If you had a flat lifter or a cam lobe flattening or grooving, a lot of metal flows through the system. Could be a potential cause of lower end failure. A oil sample right now might be beneficial, as the results will show what type of contaminants are present, lead, copper, iron, silica, etc..

The mechanic told me during the repair (but before the new noise) that he had checked for other signs of wear and tear on the engine, and it all looked really good. I think he mentioned that there was no "scoring" or anything, and that it looked clean.

I am open to it being a pre-existing problem, but I had driven it a couple thousand miles with no engine issues, and there was no knocking sounds or other signs of issues when I dropped it off for the lifter and rockers. The knocking and subsequent melt-down with the cam position codes was isolated to immediately after the lifter/rocker repair.

 

[WSS]

The mechanic told me during the repair (but before the new noise) that he had checked for other signs of wear and tear on the engine, and it all looked really good. I think he mentioned that there was no "scoring" or anything, and that it looked clean.

I am open to it being a pre-existing problem, but I had driven it a couple thousand miles with no engine issues, and there was no knocking sounds or other signs of issues when I dropped it off for the lifter and rockers. The knocking and subsequent melt-down with the cam position codes was isolated to immediately after the lifter/rocker repair.

Ahh, you put a few miles on it. So you have a good idea of it's general health before the issue. I missed that . I assumed you took it straight to the doctor when you purchased it. How long did it sit "dead" before you started it? did (or does) it show any foam in the oil like water intrusion (from elements or coolant)?

 

[truckeeJK]

Ahh, you put a few miles on it. So you have a good idea of it's general health before the issue. I missed that . I assumed you took it straight to the doctor when you purchased it. How long did it sit "dead" before you started it? did (or does) it show any foam in the oil like water intrusion (from elements or coolant)?

No, none of that. It did sit dead for a while, and the timing chain needed to be done. ALso did the drivers side cat converter, which was coding. The initial mechanic (different than the current one) did the timing chain, water pump, cat converter, and some other minor stuff. The jeep then ran for 2k miles or so without issue other than the rockers/lifters ticking. I then took the jeep to the current mechanic who did the rockers/lifters and said the engine looked great. The issue now (see videos) happened immediately after that repair.

 

[tJKrider]

The mechanic told me during the repair (but before the new noise) that he had checked for other signs of wear and tear on the engine, and it all looked really good

Unless he pulled the lower end apart and inspected the rod bearings there would really be no way of assessing their health completely. Unfortunately, those can tolerate some abuse throughout their life but can also let loose without warning. Your Jeep isn't what I would considet low mileage, either.

It would be very hard to prove fault in a situation like this. Not saying it wasn't them, as oil contamination would be a possible culprit, just that it would be difficult to prove. I say this having worked as an engine engineer for a major OEM for 30+ years.

 

[Clyde]

Check on the VVT valves, and then the PCV Valve. This forum has some articles on the subject, and there are also some videos also documenting the issues some owners experienced.

 

[Clyde]

Check on the VVT valves, and then the PCV Valve. This forum has some articles on the subject, and there are also some videos also documenting the issues some owners experienced.

There's also a "clean" function you can run on your obd (eg obdlink mx+) , that tries to flush slush and debris from the valves. Running this a couple of times MIGHT just work, and save you some unnecessary replacement costs. Also, if you don't have one, getting an obd scanner like that is invaluable. You'll see all the diags and errors and you'll be able to program some stuff. You will figure out a lot by snooping codes and Googling root causes from the online common body of knowledge that one or two local mechs won't necessarily themselves know first hand. Apologies if I'm singing to the choir.

 

[WSS]

There's also a "clean" function you can run on your obd (eg obdlink mx+) , that tries to flush slush and debris from the valves. Running this a couple of times MIGHT just work, and save you some unnecessary replacement costs. Also, if you don't have one, getting an obd scanner like that is invaluable. You'll see all the diags and errors and you'll be able to program some stuff. You will figure out a lot by snooping codes and Googling root causes from the online common body of knowledge that one or two local mechs won't necessarily themselves know first hand. Apologies if I'm singing to the choir.

That makes sense. Considering the work that was done, something could have worked it's way down. It does sound (video) like a exhaust valve problem.

 

[truckeeJK]

OUCH! Bad situation. You can decide that the shop is "on the hook", but if the shop decides it is not, you will have a legal battle.

Consider doing oil samples of your vehicles (engine and trans at minimum ). Tracking and having solid health reports could go a long way in convincing a shop to foot the bill. I know this is the proverbial "hindsight", but if this can help others avoid issues like this, it has some value

That aside, it is possible the Jeep was parked for this reason and it is just now rearing it's head again. Considering you got it for almost nothing, an engine is not too bad for a rust free 2016. Can you get an engine installed for $5k?

EDIT: I just read or remembered that you did lifter and rocker surgery, If you had a flat lifter or a cam lobe flattening or grooving, a lot of metal flows through the system. Could be a potential cause of lower end failure. A oil sample right now might be beneficial, as the results will show what type of contaminants are present, lead, copper, iron, silica, etc..

Both mechanics that were in there, the initial timing chain replacement, and then 2k miles later the lifters, remarked that the internal components looked clean and good, no scoring, signs of excessive wear, etc...

 

[Clyde]

That makes sense. Considering the work that was done, something could have worked it's way down. It does sound (video) like a exhaust valve problem.

The VVT valves actually are solenoids, and use oil pressure to function. (Btw, these are not the same as the cam phasers). If they are clogged, they can manifest what you're experiencing. I ran the clean function twice out of desparation (parts are not always easily obtainable here), and it sorted out one error code at the time.

Here's a useful link:
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...e Valve Timing - Timing,There is no gradation.

Good luck with this one!

 

[Chris]

OUCH! Bad situation. You can decide that the shop is "on the hook", but if the shop decides it is not, you will have a legal battle.

Consider doing oil samples of your vehicles (engine and trans at minimum ). Tracking and having solid health reports could go a long way in convincing a shop to foot the bill. I know this is the proverbial "hindsight", but if this can help others avoid issues like this, it has some value

That aside, it is possible the Jeep was parked for this reason and it is just now rearing it's head again. Considering you got it for almost nothing, an engine is not too bad for a rust free 2016. Can you get an engine installed for $5k?

EDIT: I just read or remembered that you did lifter and rocker surgery, If you had a flat lifter or a cam lobe flattening or grooving, a lot of metal flows through the system. Could be a potential cause of lower end failure. A oil sample right now might be beneficial, as the results will show what type of contaminants are present, lead, copper, iron, silica, etc..

This is where I'm at too. It's going to be hard to prove anything for sure, but it sounds like it's most likely going to come down to a legal battle if you go this route.

I'm really sorry to hear about this, it's a rough situation to be in.

 

[Anybodyhome]

The VVT valves actually are solenoids, and use oil pressure to function.

And, if oil pressure is not where it needs to be.... given your 10-15 psi statement.